Ryan Catherwood (00:01.23)
Hey everybody, thank you so much for listening to Alumless. Today is September the 25th, 2026, and this is the Lost in Engagement Translation Edition. I'm Ryan Catherwood, as always, joining you by CMAC founder and CEO, Chris Marshall. Chris, what's going on, man?
Chris Marshall (00:20.968)
Hey Ryan, how are you? Looking forward to this discussion today.
Ryan Catherwood (00:24.224)
Yep, we've got our friend Annie Quade back joining us. She's actually one of the few guests that we've had a second time so far. hundred and five episodes, and like only like I think she's the second person next to Nicole Kempton that we've had on a second time. And actually, when I looked back at some of the statistics about our most listened episodes, Annie's previous episode where we talked about.
Chris Marshall (00:32.122)
I think this may be like three, so she's
Ryan Catherwood (00:51.032)
kind of donor engagement and integrated advancement was one of the most listened to episodes. So I'm excited about that.
Chris Marshall (00:57.898)
Whoa. I did not know that data point and I'm really glad we have her back. Let's see if she can break her old record.
Ryan Catherwood (01:03.438)
All right. On alum list, we talk about alumni and constituent engagement strategies and education advancement. We're pre-recorded today, as you probably noticed. But if you are listening to us by podcast, we still love you very much and appreciate you adding us to our your feed. And we're grateful for the teams at Protopia Alumni Q, Richmond Associates, and Givsey version 2.ai for being our presenting sponsors. Chris, like the show today that we were gonna
And the conversation we're gonna have with Annie gets into an interesting discussion that we really haven't had before, which is learnings that occur about the engagement side of the enterprise as a result of assuming responsibilities on the development side of the house. So you kind of have a better sense of what's going on from a couple different perspectives. But we'll get into it with Annie. But what do you think taking a job on the development side?
Chris Marshall (01:48.906)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Catherwood (01:58.775)
years after you've been working on the engagement side of the shop would almost certainly teach you.
Chris Marshall (02:04.457)
Yeah, I I I I think it's a really smart thing to do. If I could go back, I don't have any regrets, but if I could change a path, I would I would take on more of a development role when I was in house at institutions and take on a portfolio of major gift prospects and that that kind of work. I think 'cause I think it gives you a mo a more well rounded perspective on the work overall of advancement. And I I just think so if you're a listener and you haven't done it, I would seek opportunities to do it.
For that exact reason. It'll help you focus your work on the alumni engagement side, it'll appreciate the development side, and it'll get them to understand what we do better as well on the engagement side. So I th for all those reasons, I would encourage you not to change, not to jump ship and take a new job necessarily, but to take on other duties in your current role that are more frontline fundraising focused, 'cause I think it's really healthy balance for someone.
Ryan Catherwood (02:54.871)
Yeah. Well, it's definitely true though, Chris. I mean, it's fair to say that when, you know, presidents and and boards of trustees are looking for vice presidents of advancement, that, you know, they're they're really zeroed in on the folks that have major gift experience. and if you don't have major gift experience, it is a lot harder to get hired. even if it's just a little bit of major gift cultivation.
Chris Marshall (03:15.901)
Yep. Yep.
Ryan Catherwood (03:21.281)
I think it's almost essential to have on your resume. But what what do you think is the biggest misconception maybe that frontline fundraisers have about their engagement colleagues?
Chris Marshall (03:32.705)
Yeah, unfortunately the it's a it's a conception 'cause they're not misconceptions. Some of the some of the stereotypes are actually true in a lot of places. Now, many, many, many places it is a misconception. I get it. You know, the old notion that the alumni office are the party planners, you know, they're the friend raisers. That has been in our industry for decades, maybe over maybe even a hundred years, but
The the reality is that you have in in in many cases you have very sophisticated advancement professionals who understand the fundraising side, who understand the integration of advancement and how those two parts connect together. And that what you've heard me say this a million times, Ryan, that one of the outcomes of engagement unapologetically has to be fundraising and philanthropy overall. And it it I think there are more and more people in our industry who are behaving that way, but there are still, as you know, we find places, you know, a lot of times VPs come in because
they've inherited a shop where they have that mentality and they have that the stereotype if you will is true. so it isn't often i i it is it's it's no longer the norm I'd say that but it's not unusual to find shops that are still operating in the old way, unfortunately.
Ryan Catherwood (04:44.491)
Yeah, well, I suppose that what you mean by is kind of a having a hands-off approach to the work of philanthropy. but even the notion of one of the responsibilities of engagement being fundraising or one of the outcomes being fundraising would be missing the mark with a development professional whose only responsibilities is fundraising.
Chris Marshall (04:48.168)
Yeah, yeah. You got it.
Chris Marshall (05:03.018)
Well no gr that's the only thing, right? Right.
Ryan Catherwood (05:05.063)
And and like this in this herein lies the problem. And so if like this is what you're focused on now, and we'll bring Annie out because Annie went from an engagement leadership role and now she's leading development, that you would have a keen sense of where the intersection is and where it is not.
Chris Marshall (05:19.934)
Yeah, but a g but yeah, but a good development officer is gonna know that a highly engaged donor is gonna be more likely to get to become a bigger donor. You know, so a volunteer to get involved you know, a donor who gets to become a volunteer involved in recruiting students or hiring students or whatever those other outcomes might be, are is much more likely to go down a pathway where they're gonna increase their giving and their frequency of giving. So
Ryan Catherwood (05:29.335)
Undercent.
Ryan Catherwood (05:42.166)
Yeah. No, that's totally true. And it's gotta be a back and forth. Like throughout someone's life as a contributor to the institution, gift, engagement, engagement, gift. You know, and it's gotta be reengagement. Yeah, we kind of forget about that. It's like get people to the first gift and then like, all right, we did our job. well, let's bring out Annie to talk about it. There she is. Hello, how's it going?
Chris Marshall (05:45.535)
Totally agree.
Chris Marshall (05:51.806)
You talk about this all the time, the re engage the the cycle that goes on. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Marshall (06:01.322)
Yeah.
Any how are you?
Annie Bastida Quade (06:07.479)
Well, how are you both?
Ryan Catherwood (06:10.057)
Annie, welcome back to Alumless. It's great to see you. Annie is the AVP of development and organizational strategy at UTEP. And she's also one of our colleagues at CMAC, worked together on a few different projects before. so Annie, I mean I worked with you for over the years and know of course your previous role at UTEP.
Chris Marshall (06:10.634)
Living the dream.
Ryan Catherwood (06:33.195)
Where you were sitting on top of the engagement enterprise, and through a course of leadership changes and overall shifts and focus and alignment, you are now AVP for development within the same organization. And like this does not occur all that often, I don't think, like broadly speaking, in our world, and you are experiencing advancement from these leadership perspectives. I thought would be really great to share. So
Just talk about like what this crossover has been like for you.
Annie Bastida Quade (07:06.54)
Humbling, Brian. It's been very humbling. you know, I've been at UTEP right around six years now and have had it feels like almost every, you know, a lot of the different areas have reported up to me in one point and another. And it's been a really unique experience to get to see and truly like y'all were talking about integration, seeing and helping that integration actually happen and that alignment happen. And so it's been humbling, it's been wonderful.
I think some of the things that are coming, you know, top of mind right now for me is how while we're all doing the same work and we all have the same mission, each area of advancement works in very different ways. and in particular for the engagement side, you know, that one feels more like it's about seasons and campaigns and these smaller bite-sized chunks, whereas
Development is like full contact, always on, full speed ahead kind of a game. and we just had our fiscal year change over, and it feels like, okay, that was a great another record-breaking year, wonderful, ready set, go, now it's zero again. back to zero, back to zero. so yeah, so it's been really interesting. The thing that has come up a lot for me right now, that's I think one of the most helpful components that I'm gonna be leaning on a lot.
Chris Marshall (08:20.168)
Back to zero, right. Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (08:21.548)
To zero.
Annie Bastida Quade (08:36.151)
has been how much I lean into systems and thinking about, you know, when something isn't working, trying to look at the structure first. That was an experience that I had a whole lot of with a UTEP and our engagement team is looking at those systems and processes and that we had in place. And I'm finding the same to be true with the development team. And so that's been a really interesting sort of truth like thread that's been true in both
on both sides to be able to look at structure for first, whether that's goals or metrics or you know, the different policies and guidelines that we have in place, rather than just looking at individual performance, because a lot of times I'm finding what looks like not necessarily a problem, but something that would you would attribute to an individual is actually a structure thing that we should look at first. And so that's been really interesting.
Ryan Catherwood (09:29.517)
So I imagine that on a regular basis you find yourself surprised or just like this is this is not is something, even though your background includes development, that you've learned something about how gift officers view engagement. Like what do you think has kind of stood out to you as you've inferred these things or you have been told outright what you know these potential
Surprising views from a gift officer about the engagement side of the enterprise.
Annie Bastida Quade (10:04.449)
Yeah. you know, similar to what Chris said during your intro around friend raising and stuff, a lot of those, you know, I think are are fair conceptions or perceptions that that folks have and and you know, there are things like that that are there for a reason. I think one of the biggest surprises to me was an assumption that I made that the value of engagement was obvious.
Chris Marshall (10:17.084)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (10:34.197)
And like we said, we know that donors who volunteer or go to events are gonna be warmer and better leads. That part I think is is really easy to sort of pass over or just take as like, okay, yeah, we know that to be true. Okay, all right, that's fine. And I think in general, all all fundraisers know that to be true. But I think the piece that becomes hard to translate, and what has surprised me is that.
The ins and outs of the work that is required in engagement is the piece that isn't always understood by the other areas of advancement, whether that's the fundraisers or advancement services or any other team in the division, right? And so like we know the underlying truth is that engagement work matters. The like nuts and bolts of how we do it and what it takes to get there is the bit that is I think misunderstood or not fully realized.
And can cause some of the challenges.
Chris Marshall (11:38.654)
Ha having seen both sides now and ha having a career s from an engagement lens and development, what have any stories or other examples you can share that development folks got wrong about engagement folks or engagement folks got wrong about development folks? If there's any good stories you can share that would be great.
Annie Bastida Quade (11:57.316)
Any good stories that I can share? I'm gonna pick on on both sides equally, Chris, because that seems the most fair thing to do, right? I think on the engagement side, we sometimes can act like or think that, you know, money money is the enemy, and that bringing in a gift conversation or segmenting a list by the prospects.
Chris Marshall (12:05.97)
Okay.
Annie Bastida Quade (12:23.805)
that are, you know, the most philanthropic or have the most capacity spoils almost the purity of what we're doing in engagement. and, you know, I think that that is is one of those like things we need to get over. At the end of the day, our work is to, you know, philanthropically support the institution. And and that means that we are going to need to prioritize the fundraising and the philanthropy in in some regards.
Chris Marshall (12:52.704)
Right.
Annie Bastida Quade (12:53.679)
I think on the the frontline side of things, you know, it is the thinking about it as just the party planners and the tailgates and things of that sort, and undervaluing the impact that that can have, especially when it comes to pipeline development. That is, you know, I I think that's really hard to keep in mind because in frontline work,
Your metrics are the but, like the end all be all for so many things. And so if it's not gonna show up in this year's numbers, it's really hard to prioritize that long-term commitment. And so just but at the end of the day, the the biggest takeaway from this whole thing for me has been how important it is that we intimately understand each other's work and the strategy and the why behind it.
And it can't just be that, like, yes, I know we have to have engaged alums before they're gonna make a gift. It needs to be a little bit, it needs to be deeper than that and really understanding the goals that each team has, the why behind it, how we're measuring success. Like those nuts and bolts are really helpful to building that empathy and understanding for one another that leads to ultimately better high performing teams.
Chris Marshall (14:12.288)
Yeah.
Chris Marshall (14:17.47)
How how has your thinking about engagement changed now that you're on the development front frontline fundraising side? Has it morphed, evolved, or matured in any way?
Annie Bastida Quade (14:28.801)
Yeah. Gosh, so many things. I will say with those fundraising dollars resting on my shoulders, it does make me feel the need to be more protective with our time and energy and where that goes. So I noticed myself asking even more questions. I was already asking these questions, you two both know that, about like why are we doing things? How are we measuring success? Where, you know, but now it's you know, where
Chris Marshall (14:52.544)
Right. Right.
Annie Bastida Quade (14:57.325)
Will a fundraiser's time make the biggest difference? So that when it sh when they're showing up or when they're dropping everything to work on something, it really counts and that they're they fully understand the why behind the request that we have. because that really makes a it I mean it's a lot of pressure. and it makes a big difference. And so that like responsibility that I have with the team.
Chris Marshall (15:18.624)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (15:26.539)
and being able to protect their their well being and thinking about burnout, those are things that have kind of come back into focus in a way that they weren't when I was overseeing the engagement side.
Chris Marshall (15:41.257)
Yeah, that and that requires clarity in prioritization, you know, f but but also license from you as a as a manager leading staff to encourage them, even coach them to the point where they can say no to some stuff, right? They have to focus on the things that are gonna move the needle, which is really hard in our business as you know. So
Annie Bastida Quade (16:01.251)
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And with gift officers, especially if they're embedded in a unit and they have their dean and their Yes, absolutely. They have their own set of requests that are coming in and things that could distract from their time. And so it is some of that that coaching and that modeling of, okay, well, why are we doing this? What's
Chris Marshall (16:09.684)
Dean telling to do something.
Chris Marshall (16:28.138)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (16:28.163)
How are we going measure success in doing that? And does it make the most sense that you're the one doing that? Or is this something where we see and this is the other piece to it also, though, that I think frontline sometimes can assume like, well, we're frontline, so we need to make these requests. It's also does our other, our engagement colleagues, do they have space and capacity and bandwidth to take something on as well? Because we also have to have just as much.
understanding of what all is happening across the division and their workloads as well. So it's we might be able to take that on, but we first have to check with comms or we have to check with the events team to see if that's something that there's capacity for.
Ryan Catherwood (17:17.709)
Reminds me of a project we're doing right now, Chris, together with a university where, and I think this is a theme that I've heard a couple different times at several different schools, is that there's a bit of a misconception about which which team is inviting the people to the event. The engagement side of the shop is assuming that the development side isn't making sure that their prospects are invited.
Annie Bastida Quade (17:35.211)
Mm.
Ryan Catherwood (17:46.188)
Right. The development side is making sh is thinks that the engagement side is in a full throated effort trying to get the right people in the room at the right time. Right. For them to have those conversations. And what ends up happening is neither of those things happen. And you have just email marketing doing what is checking the box. And so then you have events that don't feel valuable.
Chris Marshall (17:53.842)
Everybody, right, yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (17:56.557)
Mm.
Annie Bastida Quade (18:15.861)
Uh-huh.
Ryan Catherwood (18:16.395)
Because they're not there because the right people are not in the room for the develop development officers. And you've got engagement folks who are upset because they put a lot of effort like making the event, coordinating it, and so on and so forth. And so everyone kind of feels frustrated, but it's a misconception or a misalignment about who's time is up is important in that circumstance, I guess.
Chris Marshall (18:37.024)
Great point. Yep.
Annie Bastida Quade (18:39.297)
Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (18:39.297)
Annie, what would you tell your former engagement leader self if you could go back?
Annie Bastida Quade (18:46.349)
Well, I think this kind of aligns with the example that you just gave, Ryan. It's that I think if if I was back in the engagement seat, bringing my development counterpart to the decision making table actually is something that I think would be really, really beneficial to be able to say, Okay, we are gonna have that event
Can you all take the lead on getting these people here? Or is that something that we're taking the lead on rather than leading it to the the comms email marketing and making those decisions together as like a design partner from the get-go to make sure that there is that that buy-in from the beginning with all parties involved to make sure that like this is a concerted effort that we are making together, not a this is yours, this is mine type of thing.
Chris Marshall (19:38.388)
P part of your role, and the way I think of you is that you're an expert in the talent management, recruitment, talent management, talent development category and now that you've been on both sides, what what lessons have you learned? Any changes in your way you approach it given the perspective now?
Annie Bastida Quade (19:58.122)
Yeah, yeah, there's been so much. there's been so much, Chris. And I think my views around talent management have sort of matured as our as our shop has matured, as I've seen, you know, the different programs, because when I started we had none of that in place, right? and I think initially and you know, if if my VP's thinking about the talent area as something to implement at all, I think it's often you go straight to
recruitment and onboarding, and maybe you think a little bit about engagement programming or something around your organizational culture. but my mindset has really shifted away from some of that work into organizational development. Because yes, your recruiting processes and what that experience is like for a new candidate to go through the process and be onboarded is gonna matter in terms of their retention over those first you know 18 months or so.
but I think the thing that actually I'm realizing more really can make or break an employee's experience with an organization, especially over the long term, is gonna be the kinds of things that are more of that day-to-day, how do we do our work? So I'm thinking about things like how do we train and support managers as they take on new direct reports? Are we actually putting a training program in place for them so that they can be s like supported and well prepared to start the difficult work that is managing people?
Are we talking about how we run meetings as an organization? What does that look like so that everyone feels like their time is valued and appreciated and that when we're coming together, we're moving the needle on things? how do we know the decision makers and the person who's accountable for these big projects or events or programs that have multiple teams carrying different portions of it?
And how do we make sure that those like roles and responsibilities are cleared? Those types of things about like how we do our work are really hard, nuanced pieces to figure out. But I at the end of the day, I think those actually impact someone's engagement and excitement about their work and feeling valued in their work, maybe more so than putting on a cool recognition event or providing different professional development opportunities. And it makes the team more effective in the long run.
Annie Bastida Quade (22:23.084)
As well.
Chris Marshall (22:24.5)
What percentage d d do you think you spend on retention versus recruitment? And what do you think the average is out there? Is it flip more on the recruitment side in many places or just just looking for a a a best guess here, not no no scientific data.
Annie Bastida Quade (22:40.899)
I definitely think there's more effort and energy put into recruitment. because those often feel the most urgent. And then I think I think retention comes up when you notice like this great person is leaving, or you notice a series of folks who leave right away. I think that's kind of true from what I've heard from a lot of my like talent counterparts, is you know, retention comes up as like
Chris Marshall (22:51.806)
Urgent, right. Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (23:08.819)
little bit more reactionary, ra whereas recruitment feels a little bit more proactive. And the other piece about retention though, I think is we again, we think we have to have these like big structured programs and these things that are like across the board, you know, this is what your career path is, and it's gonna be something that has to be rolled out to the entire division and it's this big thing. whereas
Chris Marshall (23:10.301)
React with it.
Annie Bastida Quade (23:35.586)
I think focusing on those smaller day-to-day like experiences of how do I stay informed? What does communication look like for us? What is you know, how do we approach synchronous versus asynchronous work? All of those like little things that are they seem small, but I think that they like they build up to creating great environments where people don't want to leave or they don't need, they don't feel that same need.
Chris Marshall (23:43.508)
Right. Yeah.
Chris Marshall (24:00.841)
Right. And if you don't address and train all you know, put training towards those different areas, they build up and they explode and then they the the reason that somebody leaves. I can't take it anymore because X keeps happening, kind of thing. Yep.
Annie Bastida Quade (24:13.719)
Yeah, the little paper cuts.
Chris Marshall (24:15.38)
Yeah. Yep.
Ryan Catherwood (24:17.717)
You have a great a gates a great sense of the conversation around advancement talent from your deep network of other practitioners in the field, the work that you've done building the Advancement Talent Co. And that is a new online community. Not not new anymore, actually. You've been working on it for a little while, but well let's level let's definitely plug it. But but first, like well, or on your way to answering this question, feel free to plug it. what are some of the issues that
Chris Marshall (24:35.134)
You should plug it. Now's your chance to plug it.
Chris Marshall (24:43.05)
There you go. There you go.
Annie Bastida Quade (24:43.426)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Catherwood (24:47.601)
our front and center right now for folks who do talent as their full time job in our space.
Annie Bastida Quade (24:55.939)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. well the the the what is it is ad advancement talent cover ATC is a an online community space actually started back in twenty twenty where we were just getting together on Zoom and had a like reply all email exactly, exactly, reply all email chain and it was a a bunch of advancement talent managers coming together about sharing best practices or resources and things like that. And
Chris Marshall (25:10.664)
Sur survival mode, right, right.
Annie Bastida Quade (25:23.361)
That reply all email chain was not really sustainable. So we moved it onto an online platform and get together monthly, and it's wonderful. There's more than 160 talent managers that come together and it's beautiful. but it is a great way to keep a pulse on things. So some of the things that are coming up right now, it's it's usually always a little bit of a hodgepodge of recruitment, retention, engagement.
and then usually one or two, you know, really unique topics. So AI has been one of those unique topics, of course. That's something that I think all of us are grappling with. How do we navigate as much change as being thrown at us? The recruitment and retention components are something that we're constantly keeping a pulse on. It's been interesting, relocation and those high-level
leadership level roles, those that's been a challenge, especially when you look at things like mortgage interest rates being as high as they are. People don't, they're not as willing to relocate anymore. and so you really have to be putting your best foot forward when you're Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So you really have to think about those things when it comes to, you know, why you're asking someone to relocate and how you're compensating them to
Chris Marshall (26:31.626)
Seven percent this morning on the news I heard them talking about mortgage interest rates. Sorry.
Annie Bastida Quade (26:46.933)
make it make sense. And so those are all things, some of it's like regionally dependent, but some of the mid-level roles can also be a challenge to fill right now. And then I think with retention, the other thing our our talent management crew is kind of always thinking about is that engagement piece is, you know, what are those programs we should be offering? The balance between are we as the talent managers required to be the ones developing that those programming
components or are we outsourcing them? So it's a little bit of of all of that right now. But I will say that given the economy and everything that's happening in in our world, retention and engagement feels like an a pressing component because while folks might be more hesitant to leave their their job today, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're like
heavily engaged and excited and showing up to work as their best, especially given all that's happening in our world today. There's a lot. and so thinking about the systems and the things that we're putting in place so that people can show up and do their best and have the support that they need is a really important thing for leadership teams and talent managers to be considering.
Chris Marshall (27:53.001)
Right, yeah.
Chris Marshall (28:09.396)
T tell our listeners how to find it. So it's Advancement Talent Co. A T C. If you're in the talent management recruitment business, if you're a vice president listening to this and you have someone who does this work, I would put it in the must do category of involvement in this community because it's a like minded group of people who are fighting this or and facing the same challenges and they're learning from each other and a great opportunity. So how does somebody find it, Annie?
Annie Bastida Quade (28:15.105)
Mm.
Annie Bastida Quade (28:34.995)
it's just advancement talent co dot com. You can find it online pretty easily. There's really not much else out there. so our SEO was pretty easy on that one.
Ryan Catherwood (28:46.209)
What's it been like building that community?
Chris Marshall (28:46.272)
Perfect. Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (28:50.852)
it's been also a humbling experience. You know, much like our work and engagement, it's it's seen
Chris Marshall (28:54.356)
Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (28:56.789)
Yeah. As someone working on something like that, it's tough, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Marshall (29:00.608)
Speaking engagement has a similar feel, right?
Annie Bastida Quade (29:00.841)
It is. It's yeah, it is it is tough. In in theory it should be simple, which makes you think it should be easy. but it's actually a lot harder in execution. and it can be you know, it can be one of those things I think people like any kind of engagement work, right? We think that if we just bring together like minded people, they're gonna like take it and run with it.
And while that's been a little bit easier in regards to ATC because the vast majority of us are facilitators of some kind. So I always know there's someone else in the room who will, you know, ask a follow-up question, right? Or you know, add something to the chat, but it doesn't mean that it runs by itself. and so there's still there's still things that you need to do to nurture those relationships. And one of the things that was really interesting and fun to do this summer was we piloted
Chris Marshall (29:41.034)
Step up, yeah. Yeah.
Chris Marshall (29:48.064)
Okay.
Annie Bastida Quade (29:59.317)
small groups within the community as well. We have a really consistent number of folks who show up for the monthly meetings. Those are s synchronous. and it's usually a group between 20 and 30 from different institutions and it's great. but and then asynchronously there's tons of engagement like on the feed of people asking questions and sharing resources and commenting with
Ryan Catherwood (30:58.397)
I lost we lost Annie's audio. Do you still have her audio or?
Chris Marshall (31:00.382)
Yeah. No, I lost her about thirty seconds ago. Same time you froze, so I wasn't sure if it was on my end. We can see you moving. Can't hear you.
Ryan Catherwood (31:04.78)
Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (31:09.707)
I see can see you but we can't hear you. All of a sudden it was like halfway through that last response or two thirds of the way through.
Chris Marshall (31:18.46)
It was right in the middle of a really good response and went
Ryan Catherwood (31:23.819)
Yeah, so there's no sound on yours right now. And I I'm sure you literally didn't do anything, which is an odd one.
Chris Marshall (31:38.844)
Nope. Still nothing.
Ryan Catherwood (31:42.091)
Why don't you maybe exit out and then come back in?
Chris Marshall (31:49.332)
we hear you now.
Ryan Catherwood (31:49.676)
now you're back.
Annie Bastida Quade (31:51.414)
Great.
Chris Marshall (31:53.312)
Do you have i ear pods or something near your computer that might have been picked up?
Annie Bastida Quade (31:54.038)
We good still?
I just took well, I just took off when you dro when you said it dropped.
Chris Marshall (32:00.715)
Got.
Ryan Catherwood (32:03.105)
Okay, interesting. Has something to do with your AirPods. all right, well let's No, you're fine. Just I think I would keep it the way it is. You were talking the last question was like Yeah, the last question if just like try to tie it one more time is you know what if what have you learned about community building? Yeah, as and there's so much to say, but what have you learned about community building?
Chris Marshall (32:05.908)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (32:07.296)
That's weird. Do you want me to try putting them back in?
Chris Marshall (32:10.942)
No, stay where you are. Sound sounds great.
Annie Bastida Quade (32:15.028)
Right. I don't know what I was saying.
Annie Bastida Quade (32:24.477)
okay, so we
Annie Bastida Quade (32:29.612)
Do you want me to do the whole thing?
Ryan Catherwood (32:31.924)
No, just like where did you wrap that?
Annie Bastida Quade (32:33.034)
I feel like I did okay, so
Ryan Catherwood (32:37.847)
Just try over the summer. We start with over the summer, yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (32:38.326)
So we yes. Okay. So over the summer we piloted this new feature where we started to bring together small groups. And it was really intended to create an opportunity for folks to get to know each other on that deeper level. create some opportunities for that relationship building. And at the end of the day, what I was hoping would happen would be it would get to a point where folks have each other's phone numbers to be able to call or text each other directly.
When they're like, man, I really need to talk with so-and-so and just get some get some thoughts on this, or you know, get a different point of view. And it was much more successful than I thought it was going to be. and have heard really wonderful things about making sure that folks have that opportunity and are carving out the time, which I think is, you know, another theme for probably a whole separate podcast, is making sure that you're still carving out.
time in the busyness of all of our work for those professional relationships, for that time to just like think and be strategic and creative. That can be so hard to find and carve out in the middle of everything else that we have going on.
Ryan Catherwood (33:52.942)
Great advice. All right. Well, let's we'll tie up our LinkedIn session, our first 30 minutes here with Annie Quade from UTEP, and we will record our bonus segment for podcast listeners. Our next guest on the show is Brooks Hall. He is the vice president of advancement for Texas State University. that's coming up in just a couple of weeks. And we'll have actually, Chris, have been there and back by then. So that'll be really fun to.
Chris Marshall (34:17.886)
Yep. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Yep.
Ryan Catherwood (34:20.395)
reflect on our trip to visit Brooks down in San Marcos, Texas, I believe is the name of the the ville. Yeah. All right. Well we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with Annie from UTEP right after this.
Chris Marshall (34:26.154)
You got it. You got it.
Ryan Catherwood (34:37.963)
All right, we are back with Annie Quade from actually Annie, how do you say Bastida correctly?
Annie Bastida Quade (34:45.909)
Steeta, you said it. You did it.
Ryan Catherwood (34:47.295)
I just said it correctly. I thought so, but I was hesitant. We are back with Annie Bastida Quade from UTEP. She is the assistant vice president for development at UTEP. And our conversation in the first half of the show was about Annie's experience now that she has moved from the engagement leadership role over to the development leadership role, which doesn't happen all that much. It's actually somewhat of a unique circumstance there at UTEP to have a leader.
Have the opportunity to take on both of those roles. And I guess let's pick up the conversation about the idea of integrated advancement. And we talk about alignment a lot on the show. And you and I have spent many hours talking about different alignments and what they should look like. What do you think now, with the knowledge that you've got, like what does real alignment look like when we're thinking about integrated advancement?
Annie Bastida Quade (35:44.575)
Yeah. I think I don't think my thinking has changed much on this, but right now the thing that comes to mind most is a shared definition of success and a process by which you are sharing some of the decision making together. it's one thing to have all of the pieces of a puzzle come together, but it's different to have them all working in concert with one another. And so
you know, being able to know at the drop of a hat what each team's top priorities are for the year feels very different. Like that feels like alignment to me rather than just, yeah, we're working on cool like cooperation and collaboration together. and so I think that's really what what has been coming top of mind to me is that what are the priorities that we have collectively and
Chris Marshall (36:30.848)
Music.
Annie Bastida Quade (36:41.841)
How are we making those dis the decisions about those priorities collectively as well?
Chris Marshall (36:48.85)
Yeah, I there's a continuum of, you know, communication, coordination, collaboration, probably some other C words in there I could come up with, but but i it it gets hard to get down that path. If you so if you were looking at a scenario where it worked perfectly and and you could say certain things like one of the things you said already would be you would involve the development counterpart if you're on the engagement side more
more throughout the process and maybe even earlier in the process, so they're they're there at the idea generation, not at the execution stage, all that. What other things that we would you point to as perfect scenario?
Of the handoff. Think of it that way, the of the handoff.
Annie Bastida Quade (37:28.128)
Well, and I think it the handoff. well, first of all, I think we should rebrand the handoff. I don't know if I even want to think about it as a handoff anymore because there really needs to be that amount of like that overlap. And, you know, I don't know if that's like a relay race because both people have to run at the same time. I don't know the perfect metaphor for it, but I do feel like there needs to be that that overlap. And that is something that I've come up
Chris Marshall (37:38.505)
Yeah, it's a good point.
Chris Marshall (37:43.178)
Great point. Yep.
Annie Bastida Quade (37:58.163)
you know, I've I've noticed come up a lot over the last few years. And in terms of a donor experience, you know, that perfect scenario I think would be that a donor's when they are experiencing us and our team and our institution, that they don't realize that they're working with someone from
engagement versus development, that it all just feels like one cohesive relationship with the institution.
Chris Marshall (38:29.15)
Right. Yeah.
I don't think the donor cares most of the time. They want a relationship with with alma mater and other alums and the students, right? That's they don't care where it's coming from.
Annie Bastida Quade (38:40.243)
Yeah. And in fact they might not want to feel like they've been like jostled around of like, well then let me lead to s send you over to this lowly lead annual giving teammate, not me. You know, like those are things that l you know it and and it that might be not a fair example because we know what those words mean versus, you know, maybe a donor doesn't realize the difference between them.
Ryan Catherwood (38:40.503)
Yeah, but
Chris Marshall (38:51.026)
Okay.
Annie Bastida Quade (39:03.519)
But it is, you know, a sentiment that could be felt potentially. You know, anytime you've worked with any customer service person and then you get passed along, it doesn't feel gr particularly great if it feels like, you know, this isn't my job. Let me hand it off to somebody else. And so how else could we create an experience where the team feels like it's functioning as one team, both internally and externally from that donor perspective?
Chris Marshall (39:14.27)
Right. Right.
Ryan Catherwood (39:33.39)
It's really interesting. I was having this thought the other day that we align ourselves, particularly development, of course, around who can give us their wealth, right? Who's interested in investing? And we and we create portfolios based around the most wealth potential, right? And giving history and and that's how portfolios are constructed. We don't create portfolios by who is most engaged.
You know, and so like you could in theory restructure and be a lot more integrated if you had the data to say, okay, this team of individuals are gonna focus on the most engaged alumni and donors. These this team of individuals is gonna focus on moderately engaged individuals. And these this group is gonna focus on lightly or unengaged individuals. This is the kind of the alignment that Ohio State moved themselves towards a little bit more, but
Annie Bastida Quade (39:59.637)
Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (40:24.799)
It does kind of require breaking down the notion of, you know, two sides of the shop, development and an alumni engagement, and brings them together in units. But it's tough to do that. And you still got to kind of keep that principal gift, major gift separate. And there there does, there's something of a handoff of the conversation about philanthropy to those individuals who are trained to have it.
you just introduced me to Mallory Erickson, Annie, and she's been helping out with was speaking of it, but that's her area of expertise, you know, is really thinking about those unique constructs that create the unique aspects of those roles that development officers do every day, you know.
Annie Bastida Quade (40:59.563)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (41:14.858)
Yeah. And it is really interesting too because like that training, I've I've talked with Mallory about this, is why do we only segment it for the folks who carry a portfolio? And how could it be helpful to also have down to I'm thinking about our interns who answer the phone to know some of the questions and some of the things to listen for so that we all kind of have an ear.
that is attuned to noticing the s the slight indicators of further engagement or philanthropy. and how how can that be something that feels like it's felt and carried a little bit more across the board and not just segmented to only this group of folks who carry a portfolio? I don't know.
Chris Marshall (42:04.512)
Yeah, right.
Annie Bastida Quade (42:08.361)
Yeah, it's an interesting it's a very fun thought experiment. And I have had as you two well know, I've had many thoughts around how to bring an engagement officers and you know, moving somebody through that like pipeline. and what what could that all look like? And at the end of the day, I d you know, you could slice and dice it all sorts of different ways. I the donor doesn't need to know what our work chart or our structure is, it's gonna
Chris Marshall (42:15.049)
Yep.
Annie Bastida Quade (42:36.063)
Be that felt experience that they have? And how can we, whether that's through structured teams and an org chart or through different types of cross-training and collaboration, how can we make sure that we are functioning in a way that creates that positive experience for the donor so that it feels like one continuous relationship with the institution, not necessarily specific people.
Chris Marshall (42:37.738)
Right.
Chris Marshall (43:04.34)
Yep. I have seen a few institutions, programs, create engagement portfolios where they take a look at people who are leadership annual gifts and maybe side bunts, lie buns, and they put them in a pool and they say, Okay, alumni staff, you're gonna manage these people and make sure those relationships continue. it's it's it's like a qualification, requalification kind of portfolio and and and th the and I'm I'm asking this question to the listeners out there
Annie Bastida Quade (43:11.456)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (43:25.408)
Yeah.
Chris Marshall (43:31.302)
I have not seen one that has stuck and lasted over the long term. Most of these start and they change when there's a change in leadership or the person in the roles down below change or the VP for advancement or the A VP for alumni engagement changes and then these things go away. So if you're listening and you have an example, send us a note. We'll have you on alumless as our guest to tell us about it.
Ryan Catherwood (43:53.128)
Or or that Annie, this maybe brings up the next question to ask is like that's always something of an entry level development role. You know, so that also that position changes every year or two, you know? And and you c and even the folks that are giving at the l leadership annual giving level, you know, they appreciate continuity. Like they want to hear from the same person, develop a relationship. Maybe they don't have quite the wealth yet. But what would you say are are some of the contours of the fields as they
Annie Bastida Quade (43:59.701)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Marshall (44:04.01)
Great point, great point, yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (44:04.767)
Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (44:22.987)
try to s retain talent. And we just talked about this interesting dynamic where there's this team called Leadership Annual Giving, which kind of straddles engagement and giving. I mean, it's it's kind of one dynamic I would think is ensuring that there's the right forward trajectory available for folks, that there's the right coaching and and leadership in place. But how do you think about
Annie Bastida Quade (44:48.361)
Yeah, yeah, this is a question I've been asked many times over the last, I don't know, decade it feels like. and I wish there was like a silver bullet to give a shop and say like this would solve all of your retention challenges, but it you really can't because each person is unique, their life circumstances are all different and the reasons that folks come and go from jobs are are so varied. The
A couple of things that I think institutions really should consider doing, and we've talked about this one a little bit already, is is the stay conversations and the like finding out and and this comes back to manager training because you first have to have trained managers to be able to have the skills to do these navigate these things. But to be talking with
Chris Marshall (45:39.912)
And and say that again. You said it quickly so but so listeners here. Stay conversations. I know exactly what you mean by it. You're exactly right. Yep.
Annie Bastida Quade (45:45.705)
Yes, not an exit interview. Yes, not an exit interview. These are before anyone is even telling you that they're looking for their next job. You start having stay conversations with folks to understand what are some of the things that motivate them. what might be factors that would lead them to leave or what might be factors that lead them to stay. And understanding that person's unique drivers is really critical to understanding.
how to support them. It's not always a bad thing when someone leaves. A good manager wants someone to grow if that is in fact, like their the direct report's aspirations. Like that is okay. It's not always a negative thing, but you have to understand that individual's goals and motivations and factors and know how to support them. but I think.
Again, kind of going back to what we said earlier in the conversation, in today's economy, it's not even just about retaining and keeping folks in their seats. It's really about keeping them in their seats and keeping them engaged. that concept of like quiet quitting has sort of not been as popular anymore, but that that is b essentially that is engagement. That is are you engaged or are you disengaged in your work? Right. And that is, I think, a bigger factor for shops to think about.
Chris Marshall (47:01.95)
Yeah, exactly.
Annie Bastida Quade (47:10.335)
And of course, the like career path when that is applicable to an individual, because it's not something everyone is, you know, driven by. but knowing what that career path is gonna look like is something that's really important to be considering. I've just heard from somebody at it was the VP of Clark University and how they hired a cohort-based fundraising group with a set
Chris Marshall (47:37.556)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (47:38.966)
progression over a set amount of time with set performance expectations of like you get in at this point at two year mark you know you're gonna get this promotion. assuming that performance goes smoothly and it's like this whole whole cohort model to like know exactly what's to come next and for a particular generation like that could feel really great to have that kind of carved out and set. but it's just again those are like those really interesting things that you have to have this set.
time and space and creativity to kind of dive into and explore if you're serious about
Chris Marshall (48:12.948)
Do do they have any length of time of doing that where it's shown benefits yet or is it still too soon? The Clark? Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (48:18.655)
Too soon. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Catherwood (48:20.629)
It's reminds me, Chris, of the in Unreasonable Hospitality, Will Gidara's book about how they have this they make everybody bust tables for the first six months or like they make everybody be a food runner, you know? And like is Yeah, yeah, like there is some earning of your stripes at everyone coming in at the same level and and going from there. And that there's no equivalent
Annie Bastida Quade (48:33.483)
Mm.
Chris Marshall (48:35.764)
Like the UPS model, drive the truck before you get up behind the desk.
Ryan Catherwood (48:49.175)
thinking on the engagement side of the enterprise because I think the like roles are so different. So it's it's sort of this interesting, unique challenge on the development side because people are really driven and measured by outreach, appointments, proposals, dollars in, like the same metrics, you know.
Chris Marshall (49:09.901)
I'm gonna bump it down.
Ryan Catherwood (49:10.157)
What do you think causes disengagement, Annie? Like what do you think are the the constructs that exist at an institution that propels disengagement amongst the staff?
Annie Bastida Quade (49:23.128)
well there's really great research you can go to from Gallup to find out like the twelve factors that keep someone engaged. and when those twelve factors aren't available, then you would have disengagement or if varying degrees of availability. You know, it's everything from, you know, having what you need to do your job, which, you know, could you know sometimes is thought of as like, do I have my computer and do I have a like desk chair that doesn't suck.
Chris Marshall (49:28.68)
Mm-hmm.
Annie Bastida Quade (49:51.619)
Or it could be like, do I have the decision making authority to actually do this work and do it well? Or, you know, it it's not always necessarily like a physical item do I have to do my job. It can be things like, am I getting any kind of recognition? particularly from my manager, are my colleagues committed to quality work? There's all sorts of different factors that can impact it. but it is a great
list of items to as a leadership team to look at and to reflect on and to say, you know, even if you don't do a formal engagement survey, but to think about like how are we doing in these areas? How do we think people would be doing? Or to ask your managers to like informally ask about some of these questions and to think about them. but I think a lot of that disengagement can come from not understanding how your work impacts the greater organization and like which part of
The giant machine, you you are your work is like contributing to it. I think that's a big one that can often be like overlooked or not thought about. which goes back to our conversations about being aligned like aligned and integrated and being able to know and understand how my job impacts and influences other people.
Chris Marshall (51:15.06)
So we're gonna we're gonna have a lot of some vice presidents listening to this podcast and recording later. you'll have a lot of people who report into a vice president. So we're we wanna send a message to the vice presidents out there that if there's something that they should be doing immediately to help with recruitment and retention. what message do you want to deliver to those vice presidents and what do you want the people who are below them to say, hey
Annie Bastida Quade (51:38.922)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Marshall (51:44.34)
Vice President, listen to this podcast at the fifty one minute mark and make sure you hear what they say. What's that message?
Annie Bastida Quade (51:53.023)
well first of all I have a lot of respect for how hard that seat is. So you know, I think you know I have a Yeah, that's a really hard job. but I will say that, you know, something that we are currently or about to be doing that I'm really
Chris Marshall (51:56.917)
Yeah.
Chris Marshall (52:00.609)
It's a really good point actually. It's a really don't underestimate that. Yeah.
Ryan Catherwood (52:03.339)
Tough job.
Annie Bastida Quade (52:19.819)
Proud of and really grateful that we have a VP who wants to who sees the importance of this is the investment in your managers, hands down. That's one of the biggest levers that you can adjust that will impact the rest of the organization. and so that I think is a really critical one that often gets overlooked and it's easy to deprioritize it because other things feel more important.
Chris Marshall (52:46.677)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (52:47.913)
The next one would be like getting that leadership team working as a team. And that's kind of goes back to that like shared goal setting and decision making. and w this past year we did this like really beautiful experience of like doing that, of going through and building a full roadmap for the year collectively and actually understanding what's on each other's plates in a way that we haven't done before. And I think it's really going to serve us well.
And then my last piece would be as much as you are able to embrace hybrid and remote work because flexibility is a lever that does not impact budget that you could utilize to help you with recruitment and retention.
Chris Marshall (53:29.888)
Yeah, I'm s as you know, I'm seeing that well, I think we're all seeing that shift a bit back from a little more tolerance to a little less tolerance is what I've seen in the advancement space. So But great, great tips. Appreciate that.
Annie Bastida Quade (53:37.632)
Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Ryan Catherwood (53:40.022)
It's kind a shame. Chris, before we ask Annie about her Friday cheers, I wanted have a brief conversation about CMAC's network activation work that we've been doing for a little while now. Annie's advised us from time to time on this particular product offering. What what is it? What is network activation and and how do we help partners?
Chris Marshall (54:05.642)
Yeah, and we've d I think we're up to six, seven, eight, somewhere like that range of these that we have clients who say to us we're looking to hire a usually A V P level for alumni engagement.
Think of it in that category, right below the vice president. And they say to us, We're who's the best search firm, or who should we go to? And we say, Well, we can help with this. Because we are in touch with literally dozens, if not hundreds, of people who are doing this work and we know where the talent is in many cases. And frankly, we build relationships with people to the point where they tell us, I'm looking for my next opportunity. So our network activation product through CMAC is basically us, Ryan, you and I, and everybody else in the firm promoting broadly out.
That this that this position exists and we're searching for it and so-and-so is the vice president, whatever. We we we paint the picture of why this is a great opportunity and we get it out there in our networks and to our LinkedIn, in our newsletter, and all that. but at the same time, while that's a broad approach, we have a very targeted approach where we're going and reaching out to very specific people and saying, Hey, I know that you've expressed interest.
Is this a region of the country, the type of school you'd be interested in? And we basically build a candidate pool of qualified, interested and willing applicants to the VP so that when they go into their go into the search mode, we walk away at that point.
we do basically, know, we we seed the the candidate pool with highly motivated and talented people and we'll walk away and say, Go find the right person for fit. And then they go through the process of interviews and all that. So there's a little bit of qualification that we do and a little bit of a slight screening maybe that we do, especially with somebody we don't know. We might have an interview, a pre interview with them. But we essentially what we're doing is we're stacking the deck so that they're gonna get a good candidate pool and be able to attract a a winner in that pub. And and you know, of the I think the four or five that we've completed, it's all been people that we've
Chris Marshall (55:57.625)
put into the process and it's been really interesting to watch this unfold and more and more of our clients are taking us up on this and I'm psyched about it. This is the first time I've ever said it publicly and it won't be all that public because only a couple thousand people will hear this but the fact is is that we've been saying it to clients one one-on-one level and now it's you know slowly kind of in the early rollout stage more publicly about it. So excited about it it's working well and it's been a lot of fun to do frankly.
Ryan Catherwood (56:24.621)
Yeah, agreed. and I one thing I would add is that actually we put a lot of care into making sure that that network activation partnership is a success, Chris. So I'm thinking about actually a a woman who's in my inbox again this morning after sharing that there was a failed search for a particular position, and we were like, No problem, we'll keep helping. And so like we went back to work and found some even more folks who might be interested. And like that second
Chris Marshall (56:47.316)
Yeah, yeah. Yep.
Ryan Catherwood (56:54.391)
phase of the search is now coming, I think, to a close pretty soon. So
Chris Marshall (56:58.361)
I I know the one you're talking about and I think we're getting close. Finally.
Ryan Catherwood (57:01.673)
Yes, I think it's I think it's almost there, thankfully, for for them and everybody. But all right, so Annie, wind us up here or wind us down, however you want to do it, with a Friday cheers, something that's got you thinking and something that maybe you'd recommend us do or read or look at. What do you got?
Annie Bastida Quade (57:24.566)
So my Friday Cheers is going to be to take your AI of choice, whether that is ChatGPT or Claude or whatever one you like. and if you are anything like most advancement leaders or engagement leaders that I know, your calendar is really busy and
You listen to a great podcast like this and you're thinking, yeah, that's really great. Where in my day am I going to carve out the time to think about stay conversations or how to get better aligned or whatever topic it is that you took away from this, and you're like, that's great, but when and how am I actually ever going to do that? and so I'm going to tell you that I think that what you should do is take your calendar, literally take some screenshots of it, upload it to Claude or ChatGPT.
Chris Marshall (58:00.191)
Right, right.
Annie Bastida Quade (58:15.155)
And ask it to help you think about your calendar differently or how you could rearrange things in a different format so that you could carve out some of that space and time. when my direct reports went from like three to like 15, that was something that I had to do. And it was really, really helpful to figure out okay, like how can I still have some time to answer emails or
Chris Marshall (58:20.213)
Mm.
Annie Bastida Quade (58:41.215)
have that strategic and creative time to to think about some of these bigger things that need to happen because otherwise our calendars will just get completely overrun. So that's my Friday cheers.
Ryan Catherwood (58:51.657)
it's is is a good one. Although Chris, I do not recommend you trying this with your calendar because Claude's just gonna be like, you know what, fuck it. I can't help you. You are overscheduled. We have no space for you to do anything other than what you've got blocked down. So
Chris Marshall (58:52.169)
Really good advice.
Chris Marshall (59:01.792)
Yeah.
Annie Bastida Quade (59:03.083)
Ha ha ha.
Chris Marshall (59:11.904)
I think it's the third time the F bomb's been thrown on alum list. I did it twice and now there was Ryan's first entry. I think it might be on on the air. I think it is, but I love it. I think you're right. Everything you just said there is true.
Annie Bastida Quade (59:13.035)
Fair enough.
Ryan Catherwood (59:17.101)
Was that my first one in a hundred and five episodes? damn.
I was trying to imagine anybody trying to make sense of Chris's calendar. It's it's a challenge, but it's it works. It works, you know. all right. Thank you, everybody. Appreciate you, Annie, and all the work that you're doing. Chris, good to see you. I'll be back in couple of weeks here with Brooks Hall from Texas State University. It's gonna be a good one. But from now, until then, we'll see you later.
Annie Bastida Quade (59:31.307)
No bad.
Chris Marshall (59:35.092)
You so much. This was great.
Annie Bastida Quade (59:37.227)
All right, thank you all.
Chris Marshall (59:41.727)
Yeah.
Chris Marshall (59:49.984)
All right. Take care everybody. Thank you.
Annie Bastida Quade (59:50.379)
Mm-hmm.
